Vaccination

[RichardTechnik]

Mirror approach to the lockdown fanatics anxious to create labels for all the non-righteous. Seems even handed to me

I'll just make a few independent observations, Richard; a mirror approach is not appropriate since lockdowns and vaccinations are completely orthogonal approaches to suppressing a virus. Either, both or neither can be tried, with varied results. There will be many lockdown zealots who renounce vaccination and vice versa in both directions.

Some data from Israel suggests vaccines are 94% effective at stopping infections. Few here would vouch for Lockdowns, but there are plenty of people elsewhere who do think lockdowns work, although it would be hard to quantify that in the same way vaccines can be quantified.

Support and antagonism for lockdowns and vaccination can also be orthogonal, one is able to support or renounce both independently. My personal view is that vaccination is safe and effective and that lockdowns do more harm than good. My views may be represented in some of my posts ; if you are an anti-vaxxer, you'll just have to suck that up, I'm afraid, but I wish you well whatever. I see vaccination as a way to reach herd immunity, making it politically possible to drop lockdown; I hope we have almost reached that point, as does the government.

I'll finish with one remark. We will soon be getting data on covid deaths of those vaccinated, versus those not vaccinated. Since we are reaching the end of the virus season, there are reasonable grounds to hope that the number of covid deaths of those vaccinated will be a very small cohort indeed compared to the total. If this is the case, it greatly diminishes the SAGE/government case for lockdown, since vaccination, not lockdown will be seen to be the primary effective measure.

Fon, I've quoted your whole post since you have taken mine out of context. I made simple comment in afirmation of Truthclone's amusing techique; that of playing at their own game, those lockdown enthusiasts who won't, or can't debate its merits. Thats all, nothing more complex intended.

You seem have suggested I might be an 'anti-vaxxer'; a broad emotive slur which various ignorants and political manipulators use to categorise people who range from wholehearted acceptance through concern of a rapildy deployed novel vaccine to those who assign other malevolent motives to vaccine use or promotion.

As an engineer and scientist I quantify the risks and cost of applying or not any protective measure against the risk of harm from the threat which the measure is represented to protect against. The answer is an optimum. I have done that for most of my personal and professional life and include medical interventions in that. Those who trot out emotive safety mantras about 'all lives are sacred' or 'safety is paramount' are ignorant or dishonest.

My calculation as to whether I might take any of these vaccines is, as I have stated earlier in this thread, my own and I have done this in the past. The calculation is no-one elses and I believe everyone should be informed to do the same. Policy is dependent of the efficacy of the vaccine ( variously played down by those who want lockdown apparently forever and inflated by those who seek maximum uptake) and the age related risks ( again propagandised by vested interests ). This should lead to an optimum calculation by age,comorbidity and contra-indication as to the cohort that will benefit from vaccination. Those who clamour for whole population vaccination are disingenous. The people I reserve my contempt for are those who deliberately and knowingly suppress and pervert the facts for whatever reason and I include most of SAGE , SPI-B and the MSM and especially the BBC who are handsomely bribed with taxpayers money to do so. Contemptible are those who use or advocate coercion as policy tool and they will reap the rewards of this in due course.

Lockdown is treated in the same way. Isolation is a reasonable precaution for 2-3 weeks in a data vacuum re IFR or transmissibility for a new disease. Instead it has been hijacked by a range of interests and its purpose is no longer about either saving the NHS nor lives. This is becoming increasingly obvious and was a long time ago to more and more people who are capable of independent thought. It is absolutely clear that the cost benefit of lockdowns if they have been calculated are ignored by those who have arrogated power to themselves and it is clear that zero covid is a fantasy.

Whether or not I have contracted and recovered from covid is irrelevant; my age puts me in the vulnerable group but none of the interventions are being done in my name an I speak for many I know who feel likewise.

I'm sorry if my view contradicts yours in any way.

[fon]

You seem have suggested I might be an 'anti-vaxxer'; a broad emotive slur which various ignorants and political manipulators use to categorise people who range from wholehearted acceptance through concern of a rapildy deployed novel vaccine to those who assign other malevolent motives to vaccine use or promotion.

Thank you for your kind words.

I'm sorry if my view contradicts yours in any way.

Thank you for your sincere apology.

[Speedstick]

Vaccination is surely a matter of personal choice and not a decision any person should be coerced or forced into, violation of the Nuremberg code is against the individuals human rights after all.
I am fully respectful of anybody's wish to have the vaccine, and therefore expect others to be respectful of my decision not to.
Some posters on this site have previously posted that is one's duty to have the vaccine, this is l wholeheartedly disagree with.
I am in my late fifties but fortunately in good health, and not on any medication. When l say fortunate, is it fortunate or it is it because l have made good lifestyle choices in terms of exercise, diet etc throughout my life.
Therefore my question to others now questioning my decision to refuse the vaccine is, was it not your duty previously then to me, and wider society to make similar wise lifestyle choices, have many deaths in many pre septuagenarian age groups not been due to excesses of alcohol, smoking, poor diet, lack of exercise etc.

[hachibunga]

In this life, things come, and things go.

The only thing of real permanence in this life are our principles and values. Everything we have we value is a direct result of our principles and values. The moment you compromise these, you're without foundation, adrift at sea, will be taken wherever the tide drifts, and ultimately will lose everything you value. Hold on to your principles and values, and reality, like a fertile field well sowed, will continue to provide that which you value most.

You know the saying - a principle isn't a a principle until it costs you. Well now is one of those times. If you value bodily autonomy, truth, and standing up to evil wherever it presents itself, you will not take this vaccine. And the cost you might bear is some temporary social status.

A small price to pay in the long run, considering what's at stake.

Do what is right, and speak the truth.

[Max]

First, on the subject of pressure, as many posters have said here, it is entirely a matter of personal choice. Yes you may get a letter from your GP inviting you to be vaccinated. And then a follow up letter. And then maybe a text or call. And finally a 'haven't you had the vaccine yet?' should you visit in person. Well, you can just ignore them all. File in bin. There is no law requiring you to take the vaccine and (contrary to the ramblings of some on here) zero chance that there ever will be.

As regards whether it's a good idea to take the vaccine or not, again as people have said it's a personal calculation. But I will say only that my personal calculation is as follows:

Certainly I am sceptical as to the long term effects of the vaccines, because we can't possibly know what they are. But historically with vaccines in general the long term complications have involved tiny numbers of people, therefore I would see the risks as low. As for short term risks we pretty well know for certain (again, contrary to the ramblings of some on here) that they are between negligible and zero.

But given there might be some possible risk, why take the vaccine at all, when doing nothing involves no risk? Well, this is where I make the entirely selfish decision of 'give me a shot as soon as possible'. Why? Because doing nothing does *not* involve no risk. I am a fit and healthy person below the age of the 'highest risk' groups and am not engaged in any activities that involve contact with large numbers of people, therefore unlikely to contract covid by interaction with strangers. So what's my problem?

The danger is, from my point of view, falling ill from *something else*. If I get a stomach ulcer, or appendicitis, or break a leg, or any other injury which incapacitates me then I will get whisked off to hospital *whether I like it or not*. And hospitals are the highest risk source of covid infections that anyone outside of a care home (or prison) is likely to encounter. So (as has been accurately stated by others on here) if you didn't have covid before you went in there is a very good chance you will catch it whilst you are there. And that is exactly when I will have been rendered weakened by whatever I have been taken in for, and therefore more susceptible to the disease. And taking the vaccine at that stage will be too late.

Now that's just my choice based on my assessment of risks. The point is you should make your own assessment and then decide on balance what you feel comfortable with.

[CoronanationStreet]

Vaccination is surely a matter of personal choice and not a decision any person should be coerced or forced into, violation of the Nuremberg code is against the individuals human rights after all.
I am fully respectful of anybody's wish to have the vaccine, and therefore expect others to be respectful of my decision not to.
Some posters on this site have previously posted that is one's duty to have the vaccine, this is l wholeheartedly disagree with.
I am in my late fifties but fortunately in good health, and not on any medication. When l say fortunate, is it fortunate or it is it because l have made good lifestyle choices in terms of exercise, diet etc throughout my life.
Therefore my question to others now questioning my decision to refuse the vaccine is, was it not your duty previously then to me, and wider society to make similar wise lifestyle choices, have many deaths in many pre septuagenarian age groups not been due to excesses of alcohol, smoking, poor diet, lack of exercise etc.

"excesses of alcohol, smoking, poor diet, lack of exercise etc."

They will be next on the public health zealots' radar.

[Splatt]

There's no real doubt the UK populations metabolic health is very poor for a developed country and getting worse.
Its likely why our CFRs are so much higher as well.

Nannying wont help though.

I'm extremely uncomfortable with fatties being on the next priority list for the vaccine. Co-morbidities you're completely in control of as an individual shouldn't be prioritised over people that haven't chosen that route.

From a clinical point of view it makes sense - target the risk groups in order. From a moral point of view, i disagree with putting self-inflicted/self-fixable above those that have not.

[RichardTechnik]

Thank you for your kind words.

Thank you for your sincere apology.

No apology intended.

[Speedstick]

To clarify my earlier post in this thread, I am not for a nanny state or being over judgemental of others lifestyle choices either.
The point I was really trying to make is exactly that, everybody's lifestyle is their own individual choice, (outside of intentional harm to others), that includes having the vaccine administered or not.
I was just endeavouring to make the point I do not wish to have the vaccine but other posters on here have told me it is my duty, it is this that I fundamentally disagree with.

[thinksaboutit]

In this life, things come, and things go.

The only thing of real permanence in this life are our principles and values. Everything we have we value is a direct result of our principles and values. The moment you compromise these, you're without foundation, adrift at sea, will be taken wherever the tide drifts, and ultimately will lose everything you value. Hold on to your principles and values, and reality, like a fertile field well sowed, will continue to provide that which you value most.

You know the saying - a principle isn't a a principle until it costs you. Well now is one of those times. If you value bodily autonomy, truth, and standing up to evil wherever it presents itself, you will not take this vaccine. And the cost you might bear is some temporary social status.

A small price to pay in the long run, considering what's at stake.

Do what is right, and speak the truth.

Somewhat depends on what your "principles and values" are, doesn't it.