ROADMAP

Splatt
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:46 am

Re: ROADMAP

Post by Splatt »

FreedomofAssociation wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:43 am
And I heard on PM this evening that SAGE is saying social distancing must continue beyond 2021.
The actual document allows for any restrictions to remain indefinitely. There's nothing solid at all. Its an exercise in creative writing.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... g_2021.pdf

Paragraph 5 confirms their case-led approach...

Paragraph 11 local or national lockdowns due to variants. Para 26 reinforces that.

Paragraph 13. After its endemic replacing "Most" NPIs over time. So face-rags for years...

Paragraph 127 in June, the grand reopening has the massive caveat of "with appropriate mitigation measures". So still likely stupid plastic screens in pubs, table service, reduced capacity and so on.

The really dangerous one showing this will never end is here:
128. As set out above, some measures may be required even after all adults have been
offered a vaccine,
because neither coverage nor effectiveness of the vaccine will be
100%. As a result, a significant proportion of the population will remain vulnerable to
infection, some of whom will also be vulnerable to severe disease and death. T
So there we go, even after June, some measures may have to remain in place indefinitely.
So don't expect to not have to wear a face nappy in a shop or stand 2m apart to end any time soon, if ever.

The section on international travel strongly implies you'll need a vaccine passport to get *OUT* and doesn't see this happening any time soon (Page 41).

Paragraphs 196 and 197 under "Long term" set out clearly the continued use of test/trace/isolate indefinitely.

Lots of old/junk data there too. The long debunked fomite transmission from surfaces etc.

...and finally, every single data has in bold No Earlier Than. So its not a timetable, its a guarantee that change wont happen before then, its not a guarantee that change will happen on that date or in fact at all.

So in summary, no set dates for anything to change and an admission that NPIs will remain indefinitely and they reserve the right to reverse all of this with no notice. So much for "irreversible"...

fon
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:47 pm

Re: ROADMAP

Post by fon »

Splatt wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:02 am I'd like to see irreversible in that its enshrined in law legislation that prevents any government, now and future from mandatory closure of businesses or mandatory social restrictions on people that have committed no crime (similar to Japan has).
But that won't happen. They love the endless power and no accountability now.
It can't happen here since Parliament can make or unmake any law ; and, nobody can override or set side Parliament.Hence it is not possible for Parliament now to place demands or limits on a future Parliament.That is the constitution of England, as far as I can tell.

Splatt
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:46 am

Re: ROADMAP

Post by Splatt »

To an extent yes but if its enacted in law the next government would first need to repeal it which takes time and votes (HoL, 3rd readings etc) and THEN introduce a new law for restrictions.

That alone could provide enough inertia to stop it.

Its certainly better than nothing.

(Obvious a proper written constitution would help).

CoronanationStreet
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:03 pm

Re: ROADMAP

Post by CoronanationStreet »

Splatt wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:52 pm To an extent yes but if its enacted in law the next government would first need to repeal it which takes time and votes (HoL, 3rd readings etc) and THEN introduce a new law for restrictions.

That alone could provide enough inertia to stop it.

Its certainly better than nothing.

(Obvious a proper written constitution would help).
I agree!! And backbench Tories, rights campaigners and trade organisations should all be pushing for new law to make it much more difficult for the executive to push our rights and those of Parliament itself to the side.

The worrying thing is Gove being put in charge of the "Papiere, bitte" scheme which (whilst we have seen almost every cabinet member blatantly lie about this on the radio (carefully not in Parliament) was always on the cards. What a disgrace.

What's the current knowledge on how effective the various vaccines are against The Original Covid and The Return Of The Covid (1, 2, 3 etc)?

CoronanationStreet
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:03 pm

Re: ROADMAP

Post by CoronanationStreet »

Splatt wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:15 pm
FreedomofAssociation wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:43 am
And I heard on PM this evening that SAGE is saying social distancing must continue beyond 2021.
The actual document allows for any restrictions to remain indefinitely. There's nothing solid at all. Its an exercise in creative writing.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... g_2021.pdf

Paragraph 5 confirms their case-led approach...

Paragraph 11 local or national lockdowns due to variants. Para 26 reinforces that.

Paragraph 13. After its endemic replacing "Most" NPIs over time. So face-rags for years...

Paragraph 127 in June, the grand reopening has the massive caveat of "with appropriate mitigation measures". So still likely stupid plastic screens in pubs, table service, reduced capacity and so on.

The really dangerous one showing this will never end is here:
128. As set out above, some measures may be required even after all adults have been
offered a vaccine,
because neither coverage nor effectiveness of the vaccine will be
100%. As a result, a significant proportion of the population will remain vulnerable to
infection, some of whom will also be vulnerable to severe disease and death. T
So there we go, even after June, some measures may have to remain in place indefinitely.
So don't expect to not have to wear a face nappy in a shop or stand 2m apart to end any time soon, if ever.

The section on international travel strongly implies you'll need a vaccine passport to get *OUT* and doesn't see this happening any time soon (Page 41).

Paragraphs 196 and 197 under "Long term" set out clearly the continued use of test/trace/isolate indefinitely.

Lots of old/junk data there too. The long debunked fomite transmission from surfaces etc.

...and finally, every single data has in bold No Earlier Than. So its not a timetable, its a guarantee that change wont happen before then, its not a guarantee that change will happen on that date or in fact at all.

So in summary, no set dates for anything to change and an admission that NPIs will remain indefinitely and they reserve the right to reverse all of this with no notice. So much for "irreversible"...

"No earlier than" Correct - I used to draft complex agreements for a living. Using wording like that to timetable performance is almost equivalent to saying you have no contractual obligations.

It's a nonsense. Well contrived bluster and smoke-screen designed to keep the masses *invested* (by way of this misrepresentation) in the vaccine rollout.

They are also buying themselves time, without actually creating actionable obligations, for the vaccine passports to be massaged into the thinking once enough people have had the vaccine(s) and either people are so desperate that they comply or so many people have been vaccinated that those who haven't will simply roll over under peer pressure.

What next? Basically, I can already envisage Christmas 2021 being restricted only to those who have their vaccine passport, or being limited altogether due to the "poor performance of the selfish minority" who have decided they don't want or need a vaccine.

Vaccines must be made available to all, and the benefits of them must be put to the public in a clear objective manner to ensure success they should not be a political weapon used against the British public.

Splatt
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:46 am

Re: ROADMAP

Post by Splatt »

Thank christ Thereas May wasn't around.

We'd need a passport to go for a piss.

Although Gove is the biggest lockdown hawk in cabinet. It wont end well.

Richard789
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: ROADMAP

Post by Richard789 »

CoronanationStreet wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:02 pm
I agree!! And backbench Tories, rights campaigners and trade organisations should all be pushing for new law to make it much more difficult for the executive to push our rights and those of Parliament itself to the side.
The single most effective change would be to repeal section 45R of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. This is the section which has allowed the Government to regulate first and ask Parliament afterwards - up to 28 days plus the length of a recess afterwards. Of course it is occasionally necessary to regulate first, but that could still be done under Part 2 of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, which imposes much tighter Parliamentary control.

CoronanationStreet
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:03 pm

Re: ROADMAP

Post by CoronanationStreet »

It really needs more concensus about how *public emergencies* will be managed and regulated. There should be requirements for Parliament to sit more frequently not less, no recesses during an emergency, a greater quorum for votes on making or extending emergency powers, no use of statutory instruments, a requirement for proper (genuine) risk/cost/benefit analyses of proposed policies to be done and presented to Parliament.

All govt scientific advice to be made public automatically and immediately.

A few vague ideas...

fon
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:47 pm

Re: ROADMAP

Post by fon »

Splatt wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:52 pm (Obvious a proper written constitution would help).
Help??? It would take ten years to draft it and 30 more to agree to it! Or we could just write down that no parliament can tie the hands of another Parliament, but then we would still be in the same situation i.e. that Parliament is sovereign, unless of course we decide that Parliament is NOT sovereign, then we would be puzzled to know what really is sovereign. There is no silver bullet to fix the British constitution - it is what it is.

fon
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:47 pm

Re: ROADMAP

Post by fon »

Splatt wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:52 pm To an extent yes
It's much more than that, there is no extent to the power of Parliament, it is unlimited.

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