Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Treatments and their effectiveness, herd immunity, masks, testing, etc.
StPiosCafe
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:00 pm

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by StPiosCafe »

Fingal wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:39 pm
Rudolph Rigger wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:10 pm Ah Fingal, you pop up like a silent fart leaving its malodorous trail
Just to point out, this is a site that prides itself on reasoned, non-insulting debate.
:lol: :lol: :lol: 👍👍

Rudolph Rigger
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:04 am

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by Rudolph Rigger »

Fingal wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:39 pm Just to point out, this is a site that prides itself on reasoned, non-insulting debate.
Says the person who has just tried to slur the users of this site with the term "crank", amongst others :D

You'll deny it, of course, you'll pretend you were only talking about some and warning us of the dangers etc etc - but the intent of your post was quite clear wasn't it?

You're not really fooling anyone here getting all faux-offended and pretending you're the reasonable non-insulting one

Fingal
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:11 pm

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by Fingal »

Rudolph Rigger wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:37 pm
Fingal wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:39 pm Just to point out, this is a site that prides itself on reasoned, non-insulting debate.
Says the person who has just tried to slur the users of this site with the term "crank", amongst others :D

You'll deny it, of course, you'll pretend you were only talking about some and warning us of the dangers etc etc - but the intent of your post was quite clear wasn't it?

You're not really fooling anyone here getting all faux-offended and pretending you're the reasonable non-insulting one
I'm not offended, and I've already read enough to know that not everyone lives up to the 'good clean fight' mantra. Just pointing it out.

'Crank' seems like quite a nice word to me. I confess to be a little cranky myself at times.

But not about vaccines.

Sprout
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:20 pm

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by Sprout »

klondike wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:35 am
This is actually the second week in a row with a fall but it was smaller the previous week and I wasn't confident that it wasn't just natural variation in the numbers. It still could be of course but that is looking less likely to me now.

https://covid.digitalham.co.uk/age_morbidity.php
klondike, nice work, I hope you are correct. At the moment, for me, the data looks confusing.

The reasons I say this are
(i) Take the NHS England data (https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/s ... ly-deaths/) and look at daily deaths from 1st December to today in the 40-59, 60-79, 80+ groups. For ease of comparison, normalise to the maximum daily deaths so each curves peaks at 1. For non-smoothed data it looks pretty much as though the daily deaths are dropping at the same rate irrespective of age group. If the daily deaths are smoothed first (7 day moving average), then normalised, it just looks like the elder age groups deaths went up a bit earlier and came down a bit earlier (for the smoothed data including the 20-39 age group is possible).

(ii) The proportion of the covid deaths that took place in hospital as a proportion of all covid deaths (e.g. compare NHS above with the Government dashboard data https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details ... me=England) went down during January i.e. proportionately more deaths outside of hospital.

(iii) The ONS data (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ndandwales) showed a jump in covid deaths in early January. Again normalising the data it looks like this jump is the case for all age groups above 40, whereas covid deaths for 25-39 may have jumped a week or two earlier.

So NHS hospital covid deaths do not show the January upward jump in the same way as ONS total covid deaths; all the data may need a bit more unpacking before it is clear whether your hope is correct

Rudolph Rigger
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:04 am

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by Rudolph Rigger »

Fingal wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:28 pm . . . not everyone lives up to the 'good clean fight' mantra.
:D

I certainly don't. I rather enjoy a vicious verbal jousting, but I admit it's not everyone's cup of tea. Personally, I enjoy the colour it brings to what can be an otherwise rather dreary back and forth.

inmyopinion123
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:40 pm

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by inmyopinion123 »

I’ve really enjoyed reading this thread... less so towards the end.

I am certainly not anti-vax but at this moment in time I do not want the covid vaccine.
I’m 29, fit, healthy and trying to conceive.
For me personally I am concerned around there being no long term data on the vaccine, and virtually no data on fertility (which at this moment in time is particularly important to me)
If the vaccine was using old tech like what they use for flu/hep B etc. my choice might be different. But the fact the ones currently being rolled out are brand new, the potential risks outweigh the benefits.

This is an informed choice. This is not an anti-vax choice. I have weighed up the risks/benefits and for me, the vaccine is more of a risk. I 100% respect those who choose to have it, as their risk assessment is different to mine.

If it means I need a vaccine to travel, there are other vaccines in development that are using ‘old tech’ in the last quarter of the year I believe -Valneva and GlaxoSmithKline. So I might choose to have one of these later down the line.

I am completely against vax passports especially domestic ones and I’m not just saying that because I don’t want it. Nobody should be pressured by the media/government/queen/employers to have the vaccine and in principle I’m more against it due to this also.

Rudolph Rigger
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:04 am

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by Rudolph Rigger »

Fingal wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:39 pm Just to point out, this is a site that prides itself on reasoned, non-insulting debate.
I think that has been the biggest problem with the sceptic's case. We've appealed far too much to logos - when almost all of the arguments of the lockdown fetishists have been appeals to pathos.

You'll kill Grandma
You can't put a cost on life
Protect the NHS
Save lives
Look him in the eyes

and so on.

Whilst the sceptics have been largely rational, trying to discuss evidence - they've been labelled as "cranks" or morally deficient, even "dangerous".

We're not the ones fighting dirty, using cheap, underhand tactics and offensive rhetoric. But maybe we should be.

Speedstick
Posts: 566
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:27 pm

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by Speedstick »

Another fantastic post in this thread from Mike Austin.
Your posts are always very concise but hang on the money every single time Mike. Hats off to you. You sum it up brilliantly there in very few words. 👍

maximus64
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by maximus64 »

A few foundational questions:

1. Is it a vaccine if you don't have symptoms but are still infectious?
2. Is it sensible to rely on any figures supplied by the Govt?
3. Is it sensible to proffer a diatribe about 'anti vaxers' and 'Big Pharma conspiracy theorists' when you haven't done your research?
4. If someone has to coerce you into doing something, shouldn't alarm bells be ringing?

There are many more questions.

As has been exhaustively documented by numerous people, facts don't care about feel and opinions are like a*rseholes, in that every one has one. People that post opinions and expect them to be received as indisputable fact are venting, not participating in an informed debate.

Freeman Exiled
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:40 am

Re: Vaccine opinion around here seems heavily biased against

Post by Freeman Exiled »

thinksaboutit wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:51 pm Looking at recent posts, it seems most here are anti-vax to some extent. Typical views are.

Ranging from enthusiastic anti-vaxxers seeking to put other people off, through the "vaccine-shy" and the "shouldn't be coerced" to the "don't want vaccine passports"

There seems to be 2 or 3 posters only that seem strongly in favour of vaccines.

Am I wrong?
Why should I be coerced into an uncessary medical procedure?

If covid19/sars-cov2 had the same fatality rate as say ebola virus, 25 to 90% fatality rate, then people would be fighting each other to be the first ones injected.

https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/99/1/20-265892/en/
"The median infection fatality rate across all 51 locations was 0.27% (corrected 0.23%)."

"For people younger than 70 years old, the infection fatality rate of COVID-19 across 40 locations with available data ranged from 0.00% to 0.31% (median 0.05%); the corrected values were similar."

"Acknowledging these limitations, based on the currently available data, one may project that over half a billion people have been infected as of 12 September 2020, far more than the approximately 29 million documented laboratory-confirmed cases. Most locations probably have an infection fatality rate less than 0.20% and with appropriate, precise non-pharmacological measures that selectively try to protect high-risk vulnerable populations and settings, the infection fatality rate may be brought even lower."

I am vaccinated against the majority of the common diseases. And for that I am grateful. Medical science is wonderful yet it is the application that is of concern.

I have no desire to be part of an ongoing social and medical experiment for a disease which is similar in scope to the common flu. Nor do I want a political system which is moving quickly to an authoritarian Medical Theocracy. This unholy desire to inject everyone, irrespectively, has the hallmarks of a mad scientist, not of a healthcare system

Refusing a medical procedure, in this case an experimental vaccine, does not make one a vaccine denier, antivaxxer, or any other malicious term you use to socially malign somebody's personal health choice.

No mRNA vaccine has ever been approved for marketing use i.e fully approved, safe and effective. These mRNA "vaccines" are still within the experimental testing phase, and they are a form of Gene Therapy.
The long term effects from these injections are still unknown. So if you are ok with being part of the great experiment, a medical pioneering trailblazer..., sorry I mean a human lab rat, then go right ahead, if that is your informed personal choice. Even if the vaccines are safe with no long term ramifications that still doesn't make it appropriate to force it upon everybody without regard to their personal or community circumstances and it certainly makes it highly dangerous to create a political system based on this procedure.

You seem surprised that on this site there are many people who are having healthy and robust discussions regarding the politics of the virus; psychological effects of lockdown; safety and purpose of medical treatments and the agendas of the organisations and individuals involved with it all.

Some people have come because they are isolated, lonely, and need to have reassurance that they are not going mad, thinking differently from everyone else.
Others are here for support, because a deluded Hysterical Self-righteous Hypochondriac with an agenda is constantly accusing them of being a murderous anti-vaxxer.

Death comes to us all.

While we wish for a long and prosperous life full of joy, how can we achieve that when under house arrest, with no social life, when friends are committing suicide, our children have become psychological scarred and our future resembles a dystopian caste system.

This fantasy notion, a religious conviction , "Believe in the vaccine and ye shall be saved" (covidians 12:2020) will not suffice.
We have lost the respect and acceptance of Life, thinking that we can control it, with an injection or a pill, and when Life doesn't obey us, we become angry at others, blaming them for "not following the rules" because they didn't wear a mask, they didn't isolate themselves, they chose not to be injected.

And because Life is no longer obeying our rules, we blame other people for being at fault ,so we accuse them and call them names...

... Like anti-vaxxer.


Discussion material.
https://www.who.int/teams/social-determ ... f-alma-ata
The people have a right and duty to participate individually and collectively in the planning and implementation of their health care.

...health, which is a state of complete physical, mental, and social well-being, and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity,...

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2020 ... m-covid-19
Pre immunity to the virus
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

https://www.biologicalmedicineinstitute ... a-vaccines
Discussion of vaccine safety

https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/healt ... map_en.pdf
Examine the feasibility of developing a common vaccination card/passport for EU citizens (that takes into account potentially different national vaccination schedules and), that is compatible with electronic immunisation information systems and recognised for use across borders,

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _0_UK_.pdf
"In Study 2, approximately 44,000 participants 12 years of age and older were randomised equally and
received 2 doses of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine or placebo with a planned interval of 21 days. The
efficacy analyses included participants that received their second vaccination within 19 to 42 days
after their first vaccination. Participants are planned to be followed for up to 24 months, for
assessments of safety and efficacy against COVID-19 disease."

So 2 years after the testing, particpants need to be monitored, which means late 2022 before evaluating the vaccine safety. All those injected as under the " emergency/temporary authorisation" are now part of the experiment. Will everybody be monitored? And how? How long does temporary authorisation last?

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ba ... eriments#c
Essentially discussing methods, use of information derived from experiments and how the moral, legal and ethical factors informs current medical testing.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/scie ... avirus-era
Viruses, bacteria, fungi will evolve and adapt... And kill you.

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